In our new episode of the True North podcast, Matt Baron is joined by Vasili Triant, Nichola Henderson and Andy Gilpin, where they discuss the balance of AI in service organisations and humans.
Episode Transcript: The Balance of Using AI in Service Organisations and the Impact on Humans
Host: Matt Baron
Panelists: Vasili Triant, Nichola Henderson, Andy Gilpin
Podcast: True North Podcast
Matt Baron:
Right. Hi, thank you for joining us. This is a special podcast, a True North by Avocado55 podcast. I’m very happy to have Vasili, Nic and Andy with me. I think you’ll see on the screen their titles, their backgrounds, so I’m not going to do any more introductions. What we’re specifically here to talk about today is the balance between using AI in service organisations.
and the impact on humans. So yeah, let’s get straight into it. I’m going to actually go to Andy.
Andy Gilpin:
Thank you. So we had a great conversation before this. Hopefully it’ll actually play through onto the podcast. But I think from my perspective and background, I’ve been involved in direct consumer for about 10, 15 years and full spectrum of technology, consumer service, websites, digital. And I think in the last couple of years, actually in the last 10 years, it’s always been about getting that human element through. It’s always been about technology enabling that.
And I think for me, that’s where my focus has been is making sure that we always use the tech, but we empower the people and we just actually get to the right answers, great service and great experience. And AI is no different to me than anything else that we’ve done in the past. It’s just another tool that helps us get the right answers, the right people. And I think it’s just got a little bit lost in the last like sort of two or three years in what actual value it delivers.
Nichola Henderson:
So for me on my side, I focus on the human capability, human performance, how to integrate AI with the human aspect whilst keeping business objectives at front of mind. And the biggest challenge I see is the fear involved in the AI discussion. There’s so many narratives on social media, LinkedIn, like everybody’s got an opinion on it. But it’s different for every customer. So how is how is the AI going to be
implemented into this company will be very different to someone else, but what’s their human strategy? I think that has to be talked about from a top line level. Generally, I see people are afraid they’re uncertain. The world is very uncertain right now in general. So it’s almost like at this perfect storm of I don’t know what’s next. Therefore I think the companies have to really focus on how can I make my staff feel safe? How can I communicate really clearly what’s going on, even if we don’t know
And I think that’s something that isn’t talked about a lot. I think leaders need to be able to say, We’re not actually sure how this is going to play out, but we’re with you in this. Yeah. And I don’t see that conversation enough. Like huge companies that I work with will people on the bottom line and you know in the interaction will tell me things like, Yeah, we haven’t had a comms for like three months. Yeah. But implementation is next month. And it’s because the leaders don’t know what to say because they also don’t know what’s going on. Yeah. And that kind of
mass miscommunication causes real problems. Whereas actually what you said, Andy, the process itself is quite smooth. The tech’s not the problem. The AI’s not the problem. It’s what does everybody think about all these things and the perception is the problem.
Andy Gilpin:
people change. Like we keep calling these things AI and technology. It’s just change. I say just change, but change is all about managing people through that change. And I think that’s one of the things we’ve probably found in the last 10, 15 years. It’s really coming down to how that change is managed into the business and actually not putting front and center the tech, the systems, the processes, it’s the people.
Matt Baron:
I think the strategy-wise, you find that we ask companies what their service AI strategy is, and either they don’t have one, or they’re falling into it, or actually it’s totally tech-focused. You must see this in your role.
Vasili Triant:
Yeah, I think that what we’re seeing is probably one of the largest hype cycles in technology history at this point. And the challenge is when we call it a hype cycle, it’s because it’s created by messages that are out there. And so when w when I look at it, I well, first off, I kind of step back and look at it from a personal perspective, but there’s really like three things three different communities in this balancing human AI. You got the vendors that have created the technology, that have created this bubble around, I mean, candidly valuations, right? Like that’s where
A lot of this stuff is is coming from is look at how large this company is, look at how much they’ve been valued at. Two, you have the business leaders. When the business leaders are hearing the messages from those same vendors of, my gosh, we can save money, we can automate. And I think in general, humans are kind of a little fascinated with the idea of automation and we say AI, but I think sometimes we relate it to robots and movies and everything. But what can it do to make my life easier? And then you have.
The people working in the business that are like taking those messages from the executives. And so everyone’s forgetting the actual people on the other end of it. And so the meaning that us as consumers or us as humans interacting with those brands. And what we need to think about is what are the outcomes we want? And the outcomes we want will determine how you want to use the technology. The challenge right now is everybody’s forcing the use of the technology based on the messages.
Coming from the people producing the technology. And frankly, most of those people have never sat in a call center. Most of them have never sat in the shoes interacting with a consumer themselves. Right? So if you’re an agent and then you’re on the other side of the consumer, you might see a little bit differently like how much we really want to automate things. And then you can find a balance. But the people implementing it within the business are just getting a message from the top saying, we need to automate, we need to put in some AI. Someone told me we’re going to get this huge return on investment.
If we deploy this technology, go. Yeah.
Andy Gilpin:
Yeah, and I think that what I’ve seen from great services, it always comes from one or two individuals that are just passionate about it. And they deliver great service because they know and love the business. They want to help the consumers. And what I’ve seen it really work is where you give them what they need. So what stops you delivering great service? I can’t find this. I can’t do that. It takes me just to do that. I don’t get the chance to answer the phone and do this. If we can fix those kind of issues and problems using technology for the right people.
you get great service, but it’s already there. You’re just helping unlock it, in my view.
Nichola Henderson:
So do you think the the big kind of thing we need to focus is on then the pause before the decision, before the transformation? So if you think about like what transformation is in general for any company, is you know, you need to break it all apart, you need to put it back together. Do we need to spend more time thinking about all of that that you guys are saying, you know, what’s the purpose, what’s the outcome, what’s the end goal, why are we doing it? What’s the timeline? It’s essentially do it properly.
But do it with an AI focus and a human focus, it doesn’t have to be either one. It’s all of it.
Matt Baron:
Interestingly, sales time, right? But so last year, the reason we know Vasili really well is that we did, we basically went through the market, we trolled the market. We assessed big to small of platform providers, contact center AI platform providers. UJET came out pretty much at the top for every category. And
what we realised that we were falling into exactly the same trap as you would when you were sourcing tech for a company. So we were doing what we’ve just been talked about. Tech becomes the big thing. We weren’t thinking about actually the implementation. what Xav and I have done is transferred our blueprint into an implementation blueprint. So transformation blueprint, helping an organisation implement a new operating model, every aspect, technology,
every human aspect, every training, recruiting, you name it, from inception to really continuous improvement cycle. So what we did was flip it on its head because AI will drive change, as you’ve seen, but they’re not removing and they’re not saving cost because it’s a new toy.
you haven’t got the internal experience to actually then execute all of the savings and remodel your organisation, which is a real shame because the opportunity is there to give better service to customers, better employee experience, better bottom line results and reinvest. It’s not about necessarily getting rid of people. It’s about freeing those people up to help your business grow. And right at the beginning, so we’ve got our blueprint, which is great and it works really well and it delivers and we assure the results.
But what you realise at the beginning is people aren’t setting a strategy based on, do I want to grow my business? There’s the opportunity for people to grow a business through freeing up resource. And we’ve seen the biggest impact is that actually implementing this has revenue uplift in organisations that are, so for example, insurance organisations or service organisations that also have a sales angle.
and obviously pure sales organisations, right? But there’s this opportunity to actually use AI to increase revenue because you’re freeing up, you’re unburdening people with the complexity of trying to sell a product.
Andy Gilpin:
I think though that’s part of, I think a lot of the challenges I’ve seen across organisations is that the conversation starts there. And actually you said it’s like, we’ve jumped to a solution and actually part of the blueprint and one of the reasons that any of the longer term partners I’ve ever worked with in businesses is you start with that, but then you immediately kind of break off and you go, okay, that’s great. There’s a blueprint. know the direction that we’re heading in, but.
you need to understand that organisation, which I get, know, and stop and pause and go, okay, that’s how it works in a perfect organisation, but they don’t exist. And it’s like, so who are the people, who are the people that are going to make the decisions on this? Who do we need to convince? Who do we need to bring on board? Who are the key actors in all of this? So that, that you get to the solution. It’s probably the one in the blueprint, but to your point as well, Nic, I think it’s taking everybody on that journey. It’s how you implement.
Matt Baron:
It’s not the end game, it’s how you implement
Nichola Henderson:
And I think a lot of people aren’t ready. So the way I see AI is first of all, I wish everybody was really excited about it. I feel like the narrative around it is negative, what I experience quite a lot because of the fear and uncertainty. And on the ground, people don’t know how it’s going to impact their job. But the reality is it’s a really positive thing because it’s two things for me. It’s a highlighter of what needs fixed. Because when you have AI, it’s kinda like, we didn’t realise this process was so broken.
we we should have been on this years ago. Or from like a capability thing, I didn’t realise Bob couldn’t manage in that way from a human element. We need to train him because he was too process driven. So there’s it’s a highlighter and an accelerator of change and progress, which I think is a really amazing thing generally for people and tech, but I don’t think everybody sees it that way.
Vasili Triant:
No. I think you’re spot on. I think you you hit the nail on the head. It’s an accelerator. So it doesn’t it it really doesn’t remove jobs. It actually is increasing the pace at which things are changing. So what used to take you, let’s just use a building a presentation for example, what used to maybe take you three to five days to build a presentation, you can now do in an hour. What used to take someone you know, weeks to build a competitive analysis, you can do in thirty minutes.
Right. So if you use it properly, it can accelerate things as long as you understand what is the outcome that you’re trying to create. And and what I’ve told my teams, for example, is the world is moving much faster now. What used to take months and years is happening in days and weeks. And so it’s not that we’re slowing down, like we’re leveraging AI, we need less people, and we’ll just still deliver things. We’ll deliver things in the same timeframe, but with less people. It’s actually like,
We have to deliver it faster. Expectations have gone up 100%, right? Everybody wants everything now. We’re in this like now economy. but also though these tools are available where you can generate these things. You can build features in the matter of minutes. You can do quality processes in the matter of minutes. AI, though, at the core, and I’ve been reading a lot of different books, consultants that have been consulting with large companies around what is the applicability of AI. And we’re stuck in this concept.
That will automate the world. We’re stuck in this concept that it’s going to replace our job. But the reality is at the core, it does algorithmic calculations. It does matches between patterns and other things faster than humans can do. Right. We can eventually get there, but if you want to correlate, let’s say, five data sets and come up with some type of conclusion, it will do that. But it still needs human judgment to make the right decision because there are other things that come in into that analysis.
So when you think about specifically customer experience and you think about AI, there are other things that come into play around the decision. There’s one is can I follow a process in a knowledge base like A, B, C, Refund? But in a specific customer situation, maybe it’s a VIP customer, maybe someone’s on the road or stranded in an airport. The urgency around something may be different. Or you may say, I’m not supposed to give a refund, but Matt is a five-time VIP customer, been with us 12 years.
I need to show loyalty to them and I may make a different decision. And at that point you need some type of context in the conversation.
Andy Gilpin:
And I think that is where great companies really spot the opportunity because if you just automate everything, then actually you’ve automated out all the humanity, all the consumer engagement. And we talked about a couple of examples without naming any, but you’re going, you just feel like you’re being pushed through a process. And at any point you put your hand up and go, wait a minute, I’m not, this is not, you feel like you’re not being heard. And I think that’s where it’s been implemented in a bad way, but done in the right way.
you can get so many great insights and you can actually build even stronger and better relationships and your business and brand.
Nichola Henderson:
And that’s the potential I think people don’t see just now because we’re not used to it. No. We haven’t lived in an environment where customer service has been great, apart from that top, you know, percent. Yeah. But if you think about where customer service is great, the employee is empowered. So somewhere, you know, some of the bike hotels, for example, without naming names, give their employees a budget to spend as they like on the customers. And I’m thinking if you give the employees the power and the confidence, like what you were saying.
Andy Gilpin:
Yeah.
Nichola Henderson:
If you have the confidence to make that call, that judgment call, it reinforces your confidence that I’m worthwhile in this job. A I can take my job because I can do something that it can’t. So it’s that kind of grounded strength in your own humanity that will save your job because you really believe that you’re worthwhile.
Matt Baron:
It empowers you. So I’m having big contact centers since the late 90s, right? All being involved in them. I’ve run them for a while. the difference, so was talking to a guy, Gavin Scott, would have been great to have him here today. It didn’t work out. But the difference is that typically in a contact center, you would promote someone because their knowledge of process and policy.
So they’d become a tier two agent. And they weren’t necessarily the best people at resolving customer issues or building relationships with customers. Now that will become the priority because the assist you get takes away all the thinking around what do I have to do with that system? What do I have to do with that process? Is that policy, does that policy fit for, know, Matt or Vasili or Nic or whatever who’s, you know, a five time VIP customer and everything? How can I work that?
you know, that bit around the, you know, having a discretionary budget or being able to, you know, make people’s day by giving them something they didn’t expect, you know, something back in time, feels like, but you’re taking that away. Yeah. You’re enabling them to be better at their job.
Andy Gilpin:
You want to feel that you’ve got to the end of whatever it was and you’ve been heard. You feel you trust the organisation the other end is going to do the right thing by you, not just you’ve ended up in a loop or ended up in a conversation. Exactly. I think you talk about it. I think in the past, it’s been contact points, it’s email, it’s phone. Actually, it’s all experience that really anytime anybody gets in touch with you, you want to fix their problem or their issue or improve what, know, what, why are they getting in touch?
Matt Baron:
Because you can have the right conversation.
Andy Gilpin:
because they have an experience problem or opportunity. If you can come away from that thinking I’ve helped them with that or I’ve resolved their issue, that’s great. I think the danger that you have in the middle ground is where if you just take it as AI and implement it, we talked about it, you just get to a poor experience faster. And then you’re left with all of these, why have we got all these issues here? And you go, you still need to do that process change. You still need to build out the strong organisation behind it.
Vasili Triant:
One of the things to to think about, right, there’s there’s a few things kind of running through my mind as we’re talking, right? One, we’ve been through this automation cycle before, right? And I know now we call it AI and it sounds super sexy and all these things, but back before the GFC, right, we had automation technology. We call it speech recognition, largely driven by a company called Nuance. And when we went to the GFC, everybody said, Hey, we have to start laying people off. And we went full automation. Everybody went into speech IVRs, full automation.
Push the customer away. And then as we started coming out of the global financial crisis, companies were saying, I want to capture these customers and I’m going to differentiate myself from the big brands. I think like Zappos and even Amazon at that case at that point. And they start, even some of the smaller banks that were coming up, because a lot of the big ones had failed, everybody was pushing automation and customers were frustrated. And it was like you went everywhere in customer experience and you couldn’t get a good customer experience.
So then people came about, said, I’m gonna give personalised experience. I’m gonna talk to the customer again. And those brands started to boom. And so everybody started shifting away from automation. Now we’re a decade or so later, and everybody’s pushing back into automation, and we’re forgetting of what we want as humans, what we want as people. Now the technology can do some cool things, but then we’re mixing like, it can do cool things, and then we’re forgetting what we really want as an as an outcome.
One of the biggest applicabilities, and we just take our general work life, look at your children in university or in or in in school, and you’re using AI to help you write papers, to check facts, to do a bunch of different things. So we call that like AI assistance, and we’re doing that across our jobs. When we get to customer experience, everybody says, what we need to do is replace the human. Well, are you going to replace the student and just say we’re going to send a bot to class from now on and someone doesn’t need to learn? The reality is the
biggest applicability to AI, matching with what businesses really are trying to get of outcomes, which ultimately is like, let’s drive revenue, let’s improve margins, is assisting our agents, assisting our humans and divorcing ourselves from the complexity of all the technologies behind the scenes.
Andy Gilpin:
I think you touched on it there. It’s getting the right balance, not going to either extreme. And I think for me, it’s always about connection. know, even coming into this, you can find out loads of information about everything to come in have a conversation. But what actually happens in here is the stuff that you just can’t automate. You know, the conversations, the connections. And I think that’s where we’d seen it maybe 10 years ago, where we went in and put a consumer service function. And then we just said to the agents who’d come from a background of speed time, we said,
just take as much time as you need to. The main goal in the aim here is to understand who you’re talking to, find out what they need to want and help them. And it just got such great feedback and it just came back down to not pushing it down the end of we need to make this self-service and automated and the end. But we still needed those things in the background to go, they needed to be able to answer the questions, they needed to have the information in front of them. But yeah, that balance and connection.
Matt Baron:
And everybody won. Everybody won. The consumer won, the agent won, the business won, revenue went up, and brand kind of loyalty etc. grew. That’s what they were called, weren’t they?
Andy Gilpin:
They became brand ambassadors. They knew more about the business in certain circumstances than the business itself because they were talking to the customers. They were looking at the systems that were feeding stuff back in, but that could only happen if that balance was there.
Matt Baron:
you can assist, mean the ability of, the beauty of AI is assists someone to do that job even better because they’re still more able to focus on the person they’re having their interaction with. Because we’re not, know, what we’ve got onto is not replacing people but supporting people with AI.
Andy Gilpin:
but it is a fear, isn’t it? And I think that fear has been, to go off on a tiny tangent, was on the news the other day about annual or global shark awareness week. it’s like sharks kill something, I think it’s 10 people annually. whereas the media, the Jaws, all the films, all the stories that go out there, these are killers and killing hundreds and thousands of people. And I think AI.
I suffered a little bit from the same sort of thing in that we’ve seen films, we’ve seen where it’s gone rogue, we’ve seen all of these challenges and horror stories that make it really difficult to go, okay, but how can you make it, how can you work with it? How can you get that balance? And I think we are coming up against that fear, but that’s back to change, isn’t it? You’ve got to show people and you’ve got to show businesses, here’s where it can really benefit you, but it can also do some damage, but you just, you’ve got to make sure that it’s never left unchecked.
Matt Baron:
So finishing with Andy’s shark story, this has been brilliant. So thank you very much for today. There’s gonna be a number of other podcasts that we’re actually recording today that we put out. Thank you for listening. Hope it’s made a bit of a difference to you. Thank you.
